Scott Taylor, former President and CEO of Walk-On's Sports Bistreaux

Daniel Blaser (00:06):

Hello and welcome to On the Clock presented by Workstream. If you care about hiring and retaining hourly employees, you're in the right place. I'm Daniel Blaser, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Sara Wasserteil of Cara Collective. Sara was recently involved in a fascinating report, all about the disconnect between what hourly employees want from their job and what employers think they want. Our conversation covers what employers get wrong in their efforts to attract hourly employees. The number one thing employers can do to make sure their open roles are more appealing and which overlooked segment of the population is statistically more likely to work harder and stay at a company longer. Well, Sara, thank you so much for joining me. I'm really so excited to chat with you today.

Sara Wasserteil (00:53):

It's so great to be here. Thanks for having me. Daniel,

Daniel Blaser (00:56):

To get things started, can you maybe just brief introduction and explain your role at Cara Collective?

Sara Wasserteil (01:03):

You bet. So Cara Collective is a 30-year-old workforce development organization based in Chicago, but with a national presence. And what we specialize in is helping individuals who historically struggled to get into the workplace or advance in the workplace into quality jobs, often into frontline roles. So we work in industries such as healthcare, hospitality, manufacturing, food service, and professional services, and we help move people into about a thousand jobs a year at a one year, same firm retention rate, about 20 points higher than the national average. What I do at Cara is I have the distinct privilege of being able to learn from so many of the job seekers and employers that we work with to help companies think through how they can shift their practices to do a better job of accessing talent pools that they may have overlooked in the past and doing what they can to support them to make sure that they can grow and advance in their firms and help them contribute to the bottom line.

Daniel Blaser (02:00):

I first read about you a little bit because you were one of the contributors on a really interesting report that was released by McKinsey and Company. Could you just maybe provide a quick overview of that report because I think you could do a little bit better than I could. A quick overview of the report and maybe the method behind it and maybe even your role with that as well.

Sara Wasserteil (02:23):

Yeah, absolutely. So after having moved folks into about 13,000 jobs, one thing that we were finding consistently was that frontline workers were struggling to find opportunities to advance when they were advancing or when they were trying to advance. So often career paths were so simple that they didn't know how to get there or so complex that they still didn't know what to get, how to get there. And even more what we were seeing is companies didn't always know what frontline employees cared about often because they just never had the opportunity to ask. So what we wanted to do was do a few different things. So number one, we wanted to better understand what frontline workers cared about when it came to advancement and upward mobility and how that might be different from what employers thought that they cared about. The second piece we wanted to look at was what the experience was and specifically when frontline workers were advancing what was happening or when frontline workers were bumping into barriers, why were they struggling to get ahead?

(03:23):

And then lastly, what we really wanted to make sure we could do is make this a very actionable report for employers who did want to do a better job of advancing frontline talent in their firms. So we wanted to walk away with very tactical recommendations that employers could adopt to better engage this talent pool. So from a mechanical perspective, we surveyed more than 2100 frontline employees around the country. We defined frontline employees as hourly workers making below $22 an hour, and we did that across a range of industries, so healthcare, hospitality, manufacturing, retail, professional financial services, pretty much anywhere where you would see a large swath of frontline employees. The other thing we wanted to make sure that we did when we were surveying those employees was have a big enough sample so we could cut it in different ways such as gender, race, geography, but also look at populations that make up a significant portion of the workforce.

(04:25):

But there isn't a whole lot of data, so think about individuals who may not have achieved a four year degree or people who had been involved in the criminal justice system. The last thing that we looked at is in addition to surveying the employee pool, we also wanted to survey employers. So we ended up surveying about 305 employers, which included representatives from human resources leadership, people like talent acquisition specialists and business partners, but also a lot of frontline managers who were really working closely with those frontline employees and had their own perception of their experience.

Daniel Blaser (05:00):

One thing that I do hear from a lot of our customers and non-customers is this kind of ever increasing wage battle where it's just like you got to keep turning up the volume on wages in order to continue to attract these hourly employees. I feel like the implication behind that is that wages themselves, what that number is, is the single most important priority to attract hourly workers. Is that the complete story or is there something else going on there?

Sara Wasserteil (05:30):

Yeah, it's a great question and I think when we were looking at advancement, one thing that was very loud and clear with frontline employees is, first of all, frontline employees want to stick and stay with the same employer versus wanting to jump to another employer. And so there's a lot of opportunity for companies beyond just pay to think about how they can retain and grow that talent. That being said, you can't ignore pay came up as the two priority for frontline workers, and that makes sense. They're making on the lower end of the wage spectrum, and so if you are ignoring that, you are at risk of losing them. But it wasn't the only thing that came out and the other themes that came out in terms of top priorities, they ended up being really aligned. So the number one priority for frontline workers across ages, demographics, et cetera, was the opportunity for job growth.

(06:23):

This showed up as early as people want to see it as early as the job description. In fact, 73% of frontline employees said, Hey, we want to see this as early as the job description, not just saying advancement opportunities are available, but really spelling out what they are yet only 20% saw them when a job was advertised. Beyond that, what frontline employees really cared about when they were thinking about their next role were things like skills alignment, so doing things that they know how to do and leg doing versus just being put into a role learning opportunity. So again, really tying into that growth theme and then having a supportive manager. So having someone who is going to support them in not just helping them stay in the firm but grow in the firm. And those came out loud and clear. And I think where there's a real opportunity for employers with those is that, yes, of course we cannot forget pay, but if you think about things like opportunities for growth, learning opportunities, skills alignment, and a supportive manager, they're all really clustered around a single theme that employers can really invest in as they think about how they advance their talent.

Daniel Blaser (07:34):

If you're an employer and you're trying to figure out, okay, what do I prioritize? Where do I start? Could you maybe just provide an example? I saw there was some interesting examples in the report itself of like, here are a combination of things that you could offer that are going to be more important or catch someone's attention a little bit more than this combination. So can you kind of talk about that when you think of that package, what it could actually look like? So

Sara Wasserteil (08:03):

I think there's three things that employers can do immediately. So the first thing and the good news is I think a lot of employers are actually spending a lot of time thinking about this and putting things together. It just so happens that oftentimes frontline employees don't know that those things are in place. So for example, say you're in a human resources department or you're a front, you are an employer and frontline employees. When we talk to those companies so often they said, we have advancement opportunities. We put it in the jd, they hear about it in the interview, they hear about it from their manager, and they give all of the various places where frontline employees find out about advancement opportunities. And yet, as you ask frontline employees when they found out about it, it is dramatically different. It is more often, oh, I heard about it from a colleague, or I heard about it if I asked.

(08:53):

So the first thing you can do is when you are doing that great stuff, shout it from the rooftops and do it repeatedly, which means you don't even necessarily in some cases need to add. It's more just understanding if people are aware of the benefits that you're already providing and the opportunities you're providing. So that's number one. I think the second piece that you can invest in is, this might sound obvious, but ask, I think so often one thing that we find is even when employers provide wonderful benefits such as training opportunities, we see a relatively low uptake. And sometimes again, it might be an awareness issue that employers are providing it and employees are not aware of it, but more often than not, it might just be because it doesn't resonate. Is it aligned with their skillset? Is it within the hours that they can do training?

(09:44):

Is it paid? So understanding what are the benefits that people value? And then aligning with that is a second piece. And then the third piece, and I can't emphasize this enough, and this was really one of the big things that came out of the report is one thing I think employers do get right when they're talking about advancement is the importance of a supportive manager. And that also shows up for frontline employees. But what we end up seeing is even though employers talk about it a lot, we don't always see the investment in training up or making sure those frontline managers know how to support those team members, especially those who've bumped into barriers. I think one of the things that was the most telling in our findings was that when people did advance, there were three things that were in common. So number one, they knew what advancement opportunities were available to them and they knew how to get there.

(10:39):

So that's that awareness piece. The second piece was that they had several manager led conversations every year, and I emphasize manager led because it didn't mean that the frontline employee was being proactive, but rather that that manager was investing in them to help them think through how they could achieve their advancement goals. And then lastly, in a similar vein, those were people who had managers who gave them positive feedback. So often we hear from frontline employees if we ask them, how often do you check in with your manager? It's never, or if the answer is yes, it's only when they've done something wrong. So you really see that investment. So those would be the three things is awareness, make sure you're providing things that people value and are aware of. And then third is really investing in those managers, not just through training, but helping them have those more meaningful conversations that show that they're investing in their employees.

Daniel Blaser (11:33):

Let's shift over to kind of one of the next points that you mentioned, which is what employers think that frontline employees want. Because as we kind of teased a lot of well-meaning employers that are trying their best, but maybe there is this disconnect. So what would you say is the biggest misconception that employers have about what they think their employees value?

Sara Wasserteil (11:58):

Yeah, great question. So this showed up in a couple of different places. So number one, employers tend to overvalue titles and recognition. The only place where titles tended to rank a little bit higher, but still not in the top five was for frontline employees 18 to 24. But for the remainder frontline employees, getting that title bump just really didn't make as much of a difference as, Hey, I can make a dollar more or I know I can grow in this organization and see a brighter opportunity ahead. So I think that was number one. I think number two, again, it came down more to what employers say that they value versus what they're actually doing. So many of them did say, oh, we value pay, and then you look at it and they're paying minimum wage or they say, we really believe in frontline managers or supportive managers, but you see them invest in managers at higher levels, not necessarily in that frontline employee population because to your point, Daniel, oftentimes people have been moved into that position maybe somewhat rapidly.

(13:03):

They didn't assess for those people management skills. I think the last piece that employers tend to undervalue is, and I misquoted this before, was just that pay piece. So they do tend to undervalue pay. When you're looking at people who are making less than $22 an hour, it does tend to be make or break. And so even adding that 50 cents, adding that dollar again in addition to those job growth opportunities can really be the difference between being able to keep frontline employees versus that burn and churn that we so often see when there is that lack of investment.

Daniel Blaser (13:41):

One thing that I kind of hear a lot about is flexible schedules and that that's really important. Do those matter as much as employers think they do or where do those net out?

Sara Wasserteil (13:53):

That's where I'd say the devil's in the detail. So when you start going up to different income levels, flexibility becomes a much more important priority for workers, especially as you start getting into more mid-level managers and above. I think when you get to the frontline employee level, again, just because they're looking for growth, because they are looking for more income opportunities, we really don't see flexibility. It wasn't even in the top 10 out of 20 prior 20 different factors that we assessed against. The only thing I'll say with flexibility is we did see it go up marginally pre and post covid, but again, it really paled in comparison to saying, Hey, I just want to know that I can use my skills, build new skills and get ahead. You'll hear a theme as I'm talking.

Daniel Blaser (14:38):

You mentioned one segment being those who have been involved with the criminal justice system at some point in the past, and that is maybe an untapped opportunity for a lot of companies to find really motivated driven employees, like you said. What have you seen companies do to really make the most of that opportunity and to reach those individuals?

Sara Wasserteil (15:02):

When we think about where there's possibilities, I would say there's different tiers, and so I'll start with some of the easiest things that you can do. So if you do have a background policy, what we recommend is communicating very clearly what that is. So often what we find is people who have been justice impacted if they see that, if they just see you're going to run a background check, they'll automatically preclude themselves from applying just because they've had doors slammed on them so many times. So the more that you can be explicit about here are the felonies that we look for, or here is how far we look back, you don't even necessarily have to change your policy and you'll already open the door to people who may have thought that they would not have an opportunity at your firm, but do. So that's number one.

(15:46):

The second thing we look at is things like look back, period, so many background checks look back as far as 20 years or so, I know that I would not want to be held responsible for something I did 20 years ago. And so we always encourage folks when they can not to look back more than five or seven years. So take a look out at what that lookback policy is and then assess accordingly. And then lastly, just thinking about where you source that talent. So number one, even if you do those first two things, you are going to find people who are coming through the typical channels you already use through LinkedIn, through Indeed, through other job boards who might not have applied otherwise. But we also recommend you working with community-based organizations or other nonprofits in your community because so often they're working with these populations, they're help making sure that they have the professional competencies and capabilities, and they're also making sure they have some more of that holistic support around their stability. So they almost have a friend or a coach that they can lean on as they work on the job.

Daniel Blaser (16:48):

Keeping in mind that a lot of people watching this are HR directors and HR managers and those in ops that are over hiring, if you could recommend that this group change maybe just one thing, what would you recommend?

Sara Wasserteil (17:03):

Absolutely. So if we think about how you retain talent, you can't not think about the front of the talent pipeline, which I know our friends in HR have so much involvement with. So what I would say is when you are providing wonderful opportunities to advance for frontline workers to grow their career, and you have a wonderful culture, shout it from the rooftops. We've talked about jds, create videos that showcase the environment so people look at it and say, Ooh, I want to work there. And then really make sure those advancement opportunities are communicated in all of the areas where you have a sphere of influence that jd, that phone screen when they start getting into the interviews, remind those hiring managers as soon as they have the interview, remember, talk about X, Y and Z, because that can be the difference between someone who looks at a job and maybe doesn't show up for an interview because they're like me. This is probably just another one of those throwaway jobs and something where they say, Hey, this company really demonstrates that they want to invest in me because they just keep talking about all these opportunities to grow and that doesn't cost any money.

Daniel Blaser (18:09):

I just kind of wanted to give you the chance to maybe leave one final takeaway. You've already given some excellent recommendations, but maybe one final takeaway and then anything else that you think the audience would appreciate.

Sara Wasserteil (18:22):

One thing I think a lot about is so often in the industries where we see a high population of frontline workers is the frontline workers are often just seen as burn insurance. So people are going to come in, they're not going to stay very long, and so employers treat 'em as such. They see turnover as a cost of doing business, and it makes me wonder that if we know that frontline employees, I very much want to stay in their own companies at an overwhelming rate, and if we know that what they care most about is the opportunity to grow, and we began to think of them as this is the future pipeline for our next positions and our next positions after that, and we know frontline employees care a lot about advancement, is how does that shift the whole talent life cycle for them from who you recruit, how they're onboarded, who are they communicated to, how they're supported, and how they're offered different opportunities to grow. I guarantee that if companies are able to look at frontline workers through that lens as a really motivated talent pool and share those opportunities and get their feedback and understand what they care about, they will see a reduction in turnover and they'll see some happier teammates as well.

Daniel Blaser (19:39):

Thank you so much for listening to On the Clock. This episode was adapted from a longer conversation, which you can find a link to in the show notes. You'll also find links to learn more about workstream, this podcast and the important work that Sara and Cara Collective are up to. Until next time, we're clocking out.